would you not accept going from a house to something less decent if it came with the likelihood that everyone in the world would have housing, food, and security?
Thats a good question, but let me also ask this: is every single human equal? I hate to break it to you, but there are people providing a lot more value to the world than a taco bell worker. So yes, I think the taco bell worker deserves a surviveable wage while they study to be greater and have social safety nets in place to assist. However if they only aspire to stay at taco bell, smoke weed and play cod all night after work, that is fine, but to be fair to others who aspired to be greater, the taco bell worker doesn’t deserve as much as them.
Before you call me an old boomer-i actually know people who live the above life and im sorry, they don’t deserve to have more than a small apartment. Which maybe is fine with them ! But no, im not going to give up my place to benefit those who aren’t attributing as much. Notice, I didn’t say they aren’t deserving of fair and affordable housing and safety nets.
I used to work in contract law at an insurance company (not a lawyer), and I was paid well to do highly specialized work. I now work behind the counter at a bakery and I get to help people feed their families. I unquestionably provide more actual value to the world through my current job than my previous one.
Id agree with you there! But youre actively bettering the community and improving quality of life, you deserve to have a comfortable living situation for that. You can’t just give houses and money to lazy or addicted people, that doesnt solve the issue is what im saying.
Do you like taco bell? Do you see value in fast food existing as a convenience?
If you think that fast food jobs shouldn’t exist at all (and everyone should have the means and the free time to make food at home, with accommodations for those who physically can’t cook for themselves), I have more sympathy with your position (even though I still disagree with some of your opinions). But if you want fast food, retail, or any similar services to keep existing, someone will always have to work in those poorly-valued jobs. And I don’t think they deserve less than the rest of us.
Tbh I think the average fast food employee works a hell of a lot harder during their shift than I do at mine. I’m sitting at my desk typing on social media right now; the guy at the taco bell next door is standing in a hot kitchen, pumping out quesadillas for hours. Sure, my job requires more specific skills, but now that I already have those skills, I’m not laboring more strenuously to use them. If my education had been free, and I didn’t need a higher wage to pay off my student debt/catch up for the years I hadn’t spent working? I don’t think I’d “deserve” more than the taco bell guy.
And I don’t think they deserve less than the rest of us.
So the Doctor that studied for 16 hours a day while I played video games and then worked 16 hour shifts at the hospital during residency for 5 years while I worked 7 hours shifts at Taco Bell should be paid the same as me?
Capitalism has perverse unjust rewards but that doesn’t make the opposite just either.
I do like it on occasion yes, and those workers deserve a living wage. They don’t deserve the luxuries of life that a doctor has, however.
Id agree the “hardness” of a job is difficult to quantify. A job where you sit at a computer all day but talk to people and run large projects to build houses or factories or anything like that, will pay more than a fast food person. They both are working, but it’s different. Could the fast food employee design an electrical system for a food facility ? No. Could the electrical engineer work fast food? Almost definitely yes.
They don’t deserve the luxuries of life that a doctor has, however.
I see your position, but respectfully disagree. I appreciate that we may want to incentivize people to be doctors, but the gifts of civilization have been hard won by the labour of all workers over the years, and IMHO on paper should be available to all. It’s not about deserving.
Now, in practice is a good doctor more likely to enjoy the charity of the community, and occupy a special status because of their critical role? Undoubtedly. IMHO in a world where creature comforts are guaranteed, these specials perks would be a huge boon.
And besides, I think most people only want lots of money because it helps insulate them from the ravages of our current system when they’re old and unable to work. If we didn’t have to worry about how to survive after our working years I think collecting excess wealth would have a lot less appeal.
PS. Personally I think there are enough people drawn to medicine that it wouldn’t be hard to fill those spots with free education. But we may have to really incentivize people to work dirty jobs like sewage.
PPS. for incentives, maybe it’s something like fewer weekly hours, or your time counts 1.5 to double towards your pension, so you can retire earlier.
And yes, a lot of people tend to ignore that the crap jobs that need to be done wont get done without monetary incentive. So im glad you mentioned that point
Interesting take. I don’t believe it’s an all or nothing question. But I think we can all agree that a lazy-by-choice person doesnt deserve as much as someone who went to school for 6 years to be a doctor. Now.the lazy person doesn’t deserve prison or to be homeless. But if you think both people need to live in a 1 bedroom apartment for things to be equal, thats actually oppression, not equality.
My main disagreement with your point is the word “deserve”. I don’t actually have a problem with an economic system that rewards some activities more than others, as long as there’s a humane baseline for everyone. But I think that’s absolutely an economic choice, and not the only reasonable one.
“Deserve” implies to me that there’s a moral system judging one activity as more worthy, or better, than another; rather than simply being more valuable to a particular economic model. It seems like a short step from that to deciding some people are more worthy than others.
I think the wording is crucial on this point, yes. I’m open to terms like “earned”, or “justifies”.
“Deserves” has moral connotations to it. As we see now in the US, it’s extremely dangerous to associate moral qualities with economic outcomes.
Also, my original objection was to the question, “Is every human equal?” There, I have no semantic qualifiers - all humans are created equal, and deserve equal rights. Full stop.
would you not accept going from a house to something less decent if it came with the likelihood that everyone in the world would have housing, food, and security?
It’d definitely be a tough choice, but I hope I’d be able to make it
Thats a good question, but let me also ask this: is every single human equal? I hate to break it to you, but there are people providing a lot more value to the world than a taco bell worker. So yes, I think the taco bell worker deserves a surviveable wage while they study to be greater and have social safety nets in place to assist. However if they only aspire to stay at taco bell, smoke weed and play cod all night after work, that is fine, but to be fair to others who aspired to be greater, the taco bell worker doesn’t deserve as much as them.
Before you call me an old boomer-i actually know people who live the above life and im sorry, they don’t deserve to have more than a small apartment. Which maybe is fine with them ! But no, im not going to give up my place to benefit those who aren’t attributing as much. Notice, I didn’t say they aren’t deserving of fair and affordable housing and safety nets.
yeah
Good argument. Your statement solves all our issues. How can people not see this isn’t a black and white issue? It can however be put simply:
Billionaires shouldn’t exist.
Everyone deserves a living wage (NOT access to all life’s luxuries)
If you feel like busting your ass working or saving money, you should be ABLE to afford the luxuries you want.
I used to work in contract law at an insurance company (not a lawyer), and I was paid well to do highly specialized work. I now work behind the counter at a bakery and I get to help people feed their families. I unquestionably provide more actual value to the world through my current job than my previous one.
Id agree with you there! But youre actively bettering the community and improving quality of life, you deserve to have a comfortable living situation for that. You can’t just give houses and money to lazy or addicted people, that doesnt solve the issue is what im saying.
Do you like taco bell? Do you see value in fast food existing as a convenience?
If you think that fast food jobs shouldn’t exist at all (and everyone should have the means and the free time to make food at home, with accommodations for those who physically can’t cook for themselves), I have more sympathy with your position (even though I still disagree with some of your opinions). But if you want fast food, retail, or any similar services to keep existing, someone will always have to work in those poorly-valued jobs. And I don’t think they deserve less than the rest of us.
Tbh I think the average fast food employee works a hell of a lot harder during their shift than I do at mine. I’m sitting at my desk typing on social media right now; the guy at the taco bell next door is standing in a hot kitchen, pumping out quesadillas for hours. Sure, my job requires more specific skills, but now that I already have those skills, I’m not laboring more strenuously to use them. If my education had been free, and I didn’t need a higher wage to pay off my student debt/catch up for the years I hadn’t spent working? I don’t think I’d “deserve” more than the taco bell guy.
So the Doctor that studied for 16 hours a day while I played video games and then worked 16 hour shifts at the hospital during residency for 5 years while I worked 7 hours shifts at Taco Bell should be paid the same as me?
Capitalism has perverse unjust rewards but that doesn’t make the opposite just either.
I do like it on occasion yes, and those workers deserve a living wage. They don’t deserve the luxuries of life that a doctor has, however.
Id agree the “hardness” of a job is difficult to quantify. A job where you sit at a computer all day but talk to people and run large projects to build houses or factories or anything like that, will pay more than a fast food person. They both are working, but it’s different. Could the fast food employee design an electrical system for a food facility ? No. Could the electrical engineer work fast food? Almost definitely yes.
I see your position, but respectfully disagree. I appreciate that we may want to incentivize people to be doctors, but the gifts of civilization have been hard won by the labour of all workers over the years, and IMHO on paper should be available to all. It’s not about deserving.
Now, in practice is a good doctor more likely to enjoy the charity of the community, and occupy a special status because of their critical role? Undoubtedly. IMHO in a world where creature comforts are guaranteed, these specials perks would be a huge boon.
And besides, I think most people only want lots of money because it helps insulate them from the ravages of our current system when they’re old and unable to work. If we didn’t have to worry about how to survive after our working years I think collecting excess wealth would have a lot less appeal.
PS. Personally I think there are enough people drawn to medicine that it wouldn’t be hard to fill those spots with free education. But we may have to really incentivize people to work dirty jobs like sewage.
PPS. for incentives, maybe it’s something like fewer weekly hours, or your time counts 1.5 to double towards your pension, so you can retire earlier.
I agree with you. You have my vote!
And yes, a lot of people tend to ignore that the crap jobs that need to be done wont get done without monetary incentive. So im glad you mentioned that point
Yes. Why is this even a question?
Interesting take. I don’t believe it’s an all or nothing question. But I think we can all agree that a lazy-by-choice person doesnt deserve as much as someone who went to school for 6 years to be a doctor. Now.the lazy person doesn’t deserve prison or to be homeless. But if you think both people need to live in a 1 bedroom apartment for things to be equal, thats actually oppression, not equality.
My main disagreement with your point is the word “deserve”. I don’t actually have a problem with an economic system that rewards some activities more than others, as long as there’s a humane baseline for everyone. But I think that’s absolutely an economic choice, and not the only reasonable one.
“Deserve” implies to me that there’s a moral system judging one activity as more worthy, or better, than another; rather than simply being more valuable to a particular economic model. It seems like a short step from that to deciding some people are more worthy than others.
Agree, poor word choice. I just meant that yes some jobs are more economically beneficial. You can’t pay an artist the same as a sewage worker.
That’s only semantics. You agree with the OP, you only don’t like the wording.
I think the wording is crucial on this point, yes. I’m open to terms like “earned”, or “justifies”.
“Deserves” has moral connotations to it. As we see now in the US, it’s extremely dangerous to associate moral qualities with economic outcomes.
Also, my original objection was to the question, “Is every human equal?” There, I have no semantic qualifiers - all humans are created equal, and deserve equal rights. Full stop.